Bol D'Or - New Project

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hugomez
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:08 pm

Hi,

Today I received a package from Rudolf with this pair of iron cylinders. He has left me them to test.

Thank you very much Rudolf for this :D
Moto-Rumi-Tipo-Sport---Cylinders-01.jpg
Moto-Rumi-Tipo-Sport---Cylinders-01.jpg (71.1 KiB) Viewed 12770 times
Moto-Rumi-Tipo-Sport---Cylinders-02.jpg
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hugomez
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:25 pm

Hi,

Just removed the aluminium cylinders that were on the bike. The photo below is from the cylinder that didn't start properly, the RIGHT side cylinder. The photo shows one mark that I understand is produced because the piston rings are not touching while passing through there, I wonder if that can be the source of loosing compression. As you can see it is almost at the bottom of the "barrel".

What do you think?
Moto-Rumi_Right-side-cylinder---Inside-marks-01.jpg
Moto-Rumi_Right-side-cylinder---Inside-marks-01.jpg (105 KiB) Viewed 12751 times
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hugomez
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:36 pm

Hi again,

Maybe what I mentioned previously is not possible, because the piston rings do not go that down, correct?

Tomorrow with better light, tripod and more time, I will try taking photos to see the "barrels" of both side cylinders from different angles.

Good night.
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Lasse
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lasse » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:22 am

Good morning Hugo, it seems to me you are on the track of the problem now!
If you are going to use the scooter intensively for driving, and not just as a "show piece" - why not use cast iron cylinders?
(And keep the alu cylinders for a eventually future sale of the vehicle, to someone mostly interested in originality)

Old nicasil coated alu cylinders are prone to trouble, and if the thin layer of nicasil start to peel off, its quite expensive and troublesome to have corrected.
Cast iron cylinders are easy to live with, as they can be rebored several times if needed, and you can use many different piston sizes.
And remember, even the top line of RUMI racing motorcycles used both iron & alu cylinders alternatively!

Ofcourse, many will say, that alu cylinders are superior to iron cylinders, because of their better heat dissipation.
But with the very low HP output, and low thermal efficiency of the RUMI motors, this will not have any considerable meaning...

Ian Skinner
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Ian Skinner » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:36 pm

Hi Hugo

On the basis that these barrels were newly re-worked to new condition? by the World's most Famous Nicasil processors, I feel that they should sort out their poor work and compensate, if that turns out to be the case.

Ian

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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:17 pm

Hi Lasse and Ian,

Lasse, the iron cylinders are from Rudolf, he allow me to use them just for testing the scooter.

I am not planning to use the scooter much anyway, actually once it is in good working order, I will probably use it a few times a year. The position is not very comfortable for me to ride it. It will be most of the time in my living room. :D

Ian, today I was planning to take some more photos of the cylinders, however I have too much work at the office, so I will not be able to do it at the moment. Even do, today I had another closer look to both sides cylinders, and now I am not that sure about the "theory" I mentioned previously. The reason is that looking closely, seem that at the area where the piston rings are touching, seem to be more or less uniform all the way.

Anyway, we will have the answer as soon as I test Rudolf cylinders, I will try to mount them today at the scooter.

More soon
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:17 pm

Hi,

I am struggling trying to put in Rudolf's piston the pins I had in my pistons. The pins came out easily of my pistons, but now (using the same pins) it is too tight in Rudolf's pistons. I guess the pins should be exactly the same diameter from all pistons manufacturer, right?

Any idea?
Moto-Rumi-Piston-pin.jpg
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RF125
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by RF125 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:28 pm

No Hugo, not all pistons and pins are exactly the same. You can probe, with this:

Put the pins into the freezer for some minutes and heat the pistons with hot air and then test if it works....

Good luck!

Claudio

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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:38 pm

RF125 wrote:No Hugo, not all pistons and pins are exactly the same. You can probe, with this:
Put the pins into the freezer for some minutes and heat the pistons with hot air and then test if it works....
Good luck!
Claudio
Hi Claudio, thank you very much for your reply, that explain why my pins do not fit in Rudolf's pistons.

I understand that following your advise, I will manage to get the pins inside the pistons, however I am concern about the moment I will have to remove those pins of Rudolf pistons after I test the bike, because there will not be possible to freeze the pins and heat the pistons, and not much space to maneuver.

What do you think?
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RUMISTI
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by RUMISTI » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:18 pm

Hello Hugo,
sorry, the piston pins have remained in the packaging, unfortunately, what is the difference from the bore to the bolt? 1/100 mm?
You can polish the bolt and the hole a bit, then that should fit.

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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:27 pm

Thanks Rudolf, I will do that ;)
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arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:30 pm

hugo just in case look at gudgeon pin extractor tool on ebay,usualy used on pressfit pins to fit and remove pins.

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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:15 pm

Hi,

Step by step things are getting in place.

Both pistons are now mounted in the conrods.

Then I started mounting the left side cylinder in place.

The three piston rings are now inside the "barrel", only pending to push the cylinder more inside until is in place, however I found a problem with the two upper fins, they are touching the scooter front body section.

As you can see at the photo below, my aluminium cylinders do not have those two fins at the top, as the iron does.

Should I just apply more force separating the fins to the front section body and pushing to locate the cylinder in the final position?, that worries me, because looks like if I do that, once is in place the fins will touch the front body section again.

What should I do?
Moto-Rumi-cylinder-fins-problem-00.jpg
Moto-Rumi-cylinder-fins-problem-00.jpg (87.48 KiB) Viewed 12662 times
Moto-Rumi-cylinder-fins-problem-01.jpg
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:27 pm

Hi,

Rudolf explained me that he fixed that cylinder, adding the fins that were broken, however he didn't use the cylinder since it was refurnished. The added fins are slightly longer and need a bit of Dremel on it.

I just reduced a bit the size as you can see at the photo, however still I have to reduce them a little bit more to get them fit at the scooter.

Unfortunately now I have to stop working on the bike until middle/end of next week :(
Moto-Rumi-iron-cylinders-fins-reduction.jpg
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:38 pm

Hi,

Today I finally found time to carry on with the Bol Dor. The fins at the side are now reduced enough to allow the cylinder going in not touching the scooter front body section, however now the back side fins is touching the engine as you can see at the last photo.

In this first photo you can see my aluminium cylinder vs the iron cylinder.
Moto-Rumi-cylinders-do-not-fit-01.jpg
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Moto-Rumi-cylinders-do-not-fit-02.jpg
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:00 pm

Hi,

Following Rudolf instructions, I will chop the few centimeters at the fins of the back.

I was very worry about the little working area that there is in the scooter to assemble pistons and cylinders, however as several of you told me, it is quite ok with the right tools.

As you can see at the photos below, now the LEFT side cylinder is in place, not touching anymore the lower half of the crankcase.

Here preparing for surgery:
Preparing-for-Chopping-cylinders-fins---Moto-Rumi.jpg
Preparing-for-Chopping-cylinders-fins---Moto-Rumi.jpg (115.54 KiB) Viewed 18378 times
Fins already reduced to the correct size:
Chop-cylinders-fins---Moto-Rumi.jpg
Chop-cylinders-fins---Moto-Rumi.jpg (115.69 KiB) Viewed 18378 times
Cylinder in place:
Cylinder-in-place---Moto-Rumi-01.jpg
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Cylinder-in-place---Moto-Rumi-02.jpg
Cylinder-in-place---Moto-Rumi-02.jpg (115.13 KiB) Viewed 18378 times
Next will be reducing the back fins of the RIGHT side cylinder.
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:34 pm

:D Everything in place now, cylinders, pipes and carburetors. Probably tomorrow I will give a test drive in the indoor parking at the basement of the building. It is raining outside.
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UHJ200
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by UHJ200 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:07 pm

hugomez wrote::D Everything in place now, cylinders, pipes and carburetors. Probably tomorrow I will give a test drive in the indoor parking at the basement of the building. It is raining outside.
Water cooling next? :lol:

Mark you, you are in good company, George Brown machined off all the fins from "Nero" his 1000cc Vincent drag bike.

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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:27 pm

Hi all,

Just came back from the parking after testing the bike. Only needed 10 seconds with the engine on to realise that the problem persist using the replacement cylinders that Rudolf sent to me for the test.

I am just lost here :(

Along these months trying to solve the problem in the RIGHT cylinder not starting properly I did the next:

Check that firing point was 2.2mm BTDC.
Check there is spark in both sides.
Swapping coil.
Replace condensers.
Replace break points
Replace the full flywheel from the one I had in the Bicarburatore
Check the mass from the coils to the front body section.
Swapping twin carburettors. (left to the right, right to the left)
Replacing twin 18mm carbs to a single 22mm carb
Jump the wire connection at the ignition/key
Check cylinders compression/vacuum.
Replace cylinders


Obviously I have miss something, or I have check something in the wrong way, because that cylinder continue not starting right away as the LEFT side does.

I guess my only option is to start the searching again from the beginning testing the bike in every step of the way.
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:02 pm

Well, starting from the very beginning I just check if there is spark in both sides and now, there is no spark at RIGTH side.

Good to see that the problem is electric. No more checking cylinders, or carburetors.

Whatever is working bad, is not always working bad, because sometimes the cylinder fired and works fine.

We will see.
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arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:49 pm

hugo ,get a battery and wire the live of the battery to the live of the coil,then the negative of the coil to the points,then the earth of battery to the engine as an earth,in doing this take the original wire from flywheel wound coil of points,make sure condensor still attached to points,this will give you direct battery ignition,like this the cylinder should start unless you have a problem with points,coil or condensor,which you can then try individually,if the bike runs okay then the problem will be with the wound coil or flywheel.

greasy-fingers
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by greasy-fingers » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:00 am

Arthur's direct ignition is similar to type I used to use when racing Lambretta,s before electronic ignitions became available, I would add a switch in one of the battery wires or you may cook the coil if left too long not running,

greasy-fingers
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by greasy-fingers » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:09 am

What you are doing by using this system is removing all electrical components from the equation and using the points as a trigger to power the coil, so all you want to have connected is the battery "via a basic switch"the points, condenser,coil,ht lead and plug. Once you have tested both cylinders for sparks, it is simple to wire it up for both cylinders and take it for a run,. You won't have any lights, and you will only go as far as the battery has charge..

greasy-fingers
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by greasy-fingers » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:24 am

If you still have no sparks or poor sparks , you only have the items in this simplified system that could be the cause,. If you have good sparks at the correct firing point. "which can be confirmed with a strobe" and it still runs badly I would suspect either carburetion or crankshaft/ crankcase sealing issues,. It would appear you have eliminated cylinder/ piston problems by using two sets already,. The simple way to check carburetion problems would be to try a single 22 from your bike, as those twin carbs can be troublesome.

hugomez
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:53 pm

Thanks Arthur and Graham, I will that direct connection with the battery.

Graham, you mentioned also about testing a single 22mm carbs instead the twin 18mm, however I already did that test a few months ago.
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Lasse
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Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lasse » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:08 am

Dear Hugo, there is also another solution, which i guess, will let both cylinders start instantly.
The German company, POWERDYNAMO GMBH, produce a dedicated RUMI electronic ignition system, a socalled "bolt on & forget" system, working with the exsisting RUMI wiring loom.
I have used this ignition with great succes, on my former Bicarburatore, and racing Earles Corsa.
What do you get?
A smaller flywheel, a control box, and a modern coil - everything easy to install.
You get abundance of 12 volt electricity, and enormous strong blue sparks!
Its easy to mount the flywheel, & easy to time, because both ignition plugs will fire at every engine revolution...
No one will actually see the flywheel, as its hidden behind the normal RUMI alu.shield.
The lighter flywheel makes the motor much more responsive, and adds some extra power, because of the very consistent & reliable ignition.
And, best of all, makes the starting extremely easy!

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