Bol D'Or - New Project

Talk about anything you feel like
RUMISTI
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 am

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by RUMISTI » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Hugo, for me is the whole riddle, are you sure that also a good spark at higher speed is present? With this can be checking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdfVOUU3do

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:47 pm

Hi Lasse,

Thanks for the link to that company.

Right now I have here two completely brand new condenser that I am planning to mount at the rotor plate.

Obviously is still too early to talk, because still I do not know what is the source of the fault, however if eventually the condenser is the problem, it would be a series of coincidences with several condensers broken for the RIGHT side cylinder, and no one broken for the LEFT side.

Anyway, the only way to know if continue the search.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:01 pm

RUMISTI wrote:Hugo, for me is the whole riddle, are you sure that also a good spark at higher speed is present? With this can be checking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdfVOUU3do
Hi Rudolf,

Just one detail I didn't mention. I didn't check if I had spark at the RIGHT side after finishing all the set up, instead I right away took the bike to the parking and test it, however 5 minutes ago I connected the batteries and check in the room if there is spark. Left side has a nice one, RIGHT side nothing, no spark at all.

I will check locally for one of these spark plug cap.

Cheers
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

arthur lewthwaite
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:10 pm

hugo remove flywheel,switch on toggle switch,make sure points are closed,hold plug to earth on cylinder head.flick points gently open to make small gap,you should get a spark at spark plug,if you dont you have a problem in that circuit,this way you do not need to spin engine,as you are only checking for spark.also check insulation at points.check nothing at points shorting to earth.by gently flicking points open you will be doing same as lobe on rotor when it is spinning.arthur

arthur lewthwaite
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:14 pm

hugo to check if plug cap remove cap from plug lead,and as message above,hold end of lead just away from cylinder head about 2 to 3 mm and flick points open and spark should jump gap on to clinder head.

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:30 pm

Hi Arthur,

I just check following your instructions, the result is that I get spark at the LEFT and I do not get at the RIGHT.

Nice way to check the spark, this way I do not need to kick the kickstarter.

Thanks.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:49 pm

Hugo, to me it sounds like you have a problem with the breaker points for the right cylinder. That is the one thing that is permanently tied only to the right cylinder.

You can verify by switching the right coil connection to the left side breaker points instead. If it works then, it is the breaker points. If not, it is the right side coil, high tension cable or spark plug connector.

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Lars wrote:Hugo, to me it sounds like you have a problem with the breaker points for the right cylinder. That is the one thing that is permanently tied only to the right cylinder.

You can verify by switching the right coil connection to the left side breaker points instead. If it works then, it is the breaker points. If not, it is the right side coil, high tension cable or spark plug connector.

Hi Lars,

First all all I want to mention that I just replaced the condenser of the RIGHT side to a brand new one (this time not welding the wire but using the nuts), the result is the same, no spark. So, condenser is not the problem.

I will now switch the RIGHT side coil connection to the left side breaker points and see what happen,

Thanks
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:51 pm

This way to test with the battery and without need to use the kickstarter is awesome.

Lars, I removed the wire that was on the RIGHT side coil and connect to the LEFT side coil. So now the break point and condenser that before was assigned to the RIGHT coil is connected to the LEFT coil.

Checking if I get spark using the LEFT coil (connected to the break point of the RIGHT side), the result is that I GET SPARK.
Checking if I get spark using the RIGHT coil (connected to the break point of the LEFT side), the result is that I DO NOT GET SPARK.

So, following this result, the conclusion is that the RIGHT side coil is the problem.

However I did swap the coils connections in the past, but maybe I did something wrong on those tests. I will draw a diagram to show how I did the swapping coils on the previous test, maybe you can spot if I did something wrong.

Cheers,
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Hi again,

Lars, this is the diagram of what I did in the previous coil test in the past (not today), with the result that always the RIGHT side cylinder didn't work properly, or didn't work at all.

I connected that way to do not have to physically swap the coils of their position in the front body section, so instead swap the coils, I swapped the wires and cables.

Is there anything wrong in that swapping coils test?
Diagram-swapping-coils-connections.jpg
Diagram-swapping-coils-connections.jpg (126.12 KiB) Viewed 14291 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:01 pm

Nothing wrong with that substitution. If you did it exactly as you show, only the wire going from the right breaker points to the coil remains the same. Check that wire for any possible breaks or contacts with ground along the way or where it enters the engine housing.

Try replacing that wire with a new one. With the battery connected, you should be able to get a spark by just touching that new wire to ground. The condenser should really be connected, but it will spark anyway.

If still no spark, you will have to physically switch the two coils. That should give you the final answer.

You are getting very close now!

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:10 pm

Hi Lars,

In the tests I did weeks ago swapping the coils (see diagram above) it is true that the wires remained the same, HOWEVER in the test I did with the batteries, I am not using those wires, I am using new wires connected from outside.

Maybe I am missing something that I do not see regarding wires?
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:51 pm

Hugo,
OK, if you have new wires running on the outside, you can do this: Disconnect the new wires where they enter the engine (to the breaker points). Then touch one lead at a time to ground briefly and remove. You should get a spark, even without the condensers. In other words, you simulate what the breaker points do, except outside the engine. Do that to one coil and then the other. That will tell you if the coils are OK. Most likely, the right coil will not produce a spark.

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:15 pm

Lars wrote:Hugo,
OK, if you have new wires running on the outside, you can do this: Disconnect the new wires where they enter the engine (to the breaker points). Then touch one lead at a time to ground briefly and remove. You should get a spark, even without the condensers. In other words, you simulate what the breaker points do, except outside the engine. Do that to one coil and then the other. That will tell you if the coils are OK. Most likely, the right coil will not produce a spark.
Hi Lars,

I am not sure if I am following what you are asking me to test now.

Am I correct understanding the next?

Basically you are asking me to completely remove of the equation the break points and condensers for this new test, ONLY keeping for the test the batteries, toggle switches and coils.
You are asking me to keep the "outside wires" connected to the coils, but disconnecting them of the break points and condensers. Then, with the batteries connected and the toggle switches ON, I touch "ground" with the side of the wires that were previously connected to the break points/condensers, then I should see a spark coming out of the wire when it is almost touching ground.

Is that what you are asking me to do?

Please let me know.

Cheers,
Hugo
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:06 am

Hi Hugo
Yes, correct except that the spark is not produced when you "almost touch the ground". It is when you RELEASE the ground connection that the spark is generated. So, with the toggle switch on, make firm contact with the wire end to chassis ground for just a few seconds. Then quickly release the wire from ground. At that instant you will see the spark.
This way, you are testing only the coil and high tension cables. You are removing any uncertainties about the points and condensers, even though they seem to be OK.

If you still see the right coil producing no spark, you only need to determine if the problem is in the coil or the high tension wiring.

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:15 am

After reading your question again, I just have to add that it is the spark at the spark plug we are talking about, not at the wire end. You may see a little spark there too, but that is irrelevant.

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:23 am

Morning Lars,

Thanks for the clarification. I just performed the test, to both coils, several times each to be sure of the result.

On the LEFT side, I get a nice spark all the time, I get the spark coming out of the spark plug, and also coming out of the tip of the wire that is touching ground (when I separated it of the ground). The spark at the spark plug is so good that the spark plug do not even need to be touching ground, even if I have the spark plug from around half a millimetre to one millimetre distante from ground, I still get the sparks all the time coming out of the spark plug. It is very consistent.

On the RIGHT side, I get a spark all the time at the tip of the wire that is touching ground, however the spark plug side behave funny. Most of the time I do not get spark. The few times I managed to get spark, it is not constant at this end (but still getting spark all the time at the tip of the ground wire when separated from ground).
I have perform this test 5 or 6 times to each side, (first LEFT side, then RIGHT side, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, ......) only in one of these test I managed to get a kind of constant spark from the spark plug of the RIGHT side, but in the moment I moved a little bit the position of the spark plug touching the ground, I lost the spark again at that end. No need to say that when I get spark at the spark plug of the RIGHT side, it have to be touching perfectly ground. Not like LEFT side that even if is not touching ground (but very close), the spark is coming out. So the conclusion is that the spark is very poor when I get it, but most of the time I do not get it.

What should I do now?

Thanks
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:09 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by Lars » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:43 am

Hugo,
What you are describing is completely consistent with a defective coil. It is producing only a fraction of the high voltage it is supposed to give, and it is a bit intermittent. All that is typical for a defect in the high voltage (secondary) winding. Either a break in the winding or an arcing path to ground somewhere internally. So it looks like you need a new coil.

But before you replace the coil, make sure it is not a problem in the ignition cable or spark plug connector. Take the ignition cable from the (good) left side and plug it into the right coil. If the right coil then acts the same way, you can be sure that it is the coil that is defective.

You are doing well as a tester of ignition systems!
Lars

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:33 pm

Hi Lars,

I just performed two test.

In the first I took the complete cable that has the spark plug cap + spark plug of the RIGHT side and put it on the LEFT, and the LEFT in the RIGHT, to be sure that neither the cable or the spark plug cap are defectives. The result is that problem remain at the RIGHT side.

At the second test I took the wire from the coil to ground of the RIGHT side and put it on the LEFT, and the LEFT wire in the RIGHT side, to be sure that this wire has no problem. Same result, the LEFT side spark plug get a nice constant spark, but the RIGHT nothing or a very poor spark intermittently.

So I guess we have concluded that the RIGHT side coil is defective.

The mystery here to me is why when I swapped coils weeks ago in several test in the road, the problem remained on the RIGHT side?, I guess I am missing something, I probably did something wrong back them, otherwise there is no explanation.

Certainly all this is helping me to understand a little bit more about ignition system :D

Thank you Lars and to all others that are constantly helping me.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:21 pm

Hi,

Since the first time I considered the possibility that the coil could maybe be the problem, I was worry about how I was going to remove it from the front body section, because the working space I have there is very limited.

Originally I mounted the coils before the fork, so I had much more space to work, but now with the fork middle tube there, it is extremely difficult.

The problem is that the screws are long, and I also add some Loctite at the nut to avoid it getting loose with vibrations. Now I am only able to touch the nuts at the back with two fingers, but I have not strength enough to hold it while I am trying to unscrew the screws from the front.

Before I go for the drastic measures (cutting the head of the screw with the Dremel) I wonder if anybody have an idea.

Greets.
Coil-Moto-Rumi-scooter-Formichino-Sport-BolDor.jpg
Coil-Moto-Rumi-scooter-Formichino-Sport-BolDor.jpg (107.78 KiB) Viewed 12950 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

RUMISTI
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 am

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by RUMISTI » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:53 pm

Hello Hugo,
your ignition coils are not properly mounted, it must be an angle board, catalog chapter 10, part 15, then the problem is solved.

RUMISTI
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 am

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by RUMISTI » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:02 pm

Image with Piaggio coil.
Attachments
20161204_144202.jpg
20161204_144202.jpg (114.93 KiB) Viewed 13077 times

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Hi Rudolf,

Yes, now I see it at the manual, I do not have them, but quite easy to make it.

I guess at this point the only solution is the Dremel, cutting the head of the screw.
Coil-support-Moto-Rumi-scooter.jpg
Coil-support-Moto-Rumi-scooter.jpg (43.78 KiB) Viewed 12999 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

UHJ200
Posts: 544
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by UHJ200 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:13 pm

RUMISTI wrote:Hello Hugo,
your ignition coils are not properly mounted, it must be an angle board, catalog chapter 10, part 15, then the problem is solved.
My Tipo coils are mounted in much the same way as Hugo has them. There are differences in the drawing mounting and Hugo's (and my), coil mounting design. I am the second owner of this Tipo, the first was a numpty that wouldn't have known a coil from a carburettor so I'm pretty sure that is how it came out of the factory. It is a simple manufacturing change and of no electrical consequence.

hugomez
Site Admin
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:47 pm

Hi David (UHJ200), in case you want to replace yours, do you have access to the back to hold the nut?, if hypothetically you get a coil broken, how would you do to replace it?

By the way, the broken coil is now out of the bike. (I love my Dremel) :D
Coil-out-Dansi-00.jpg
Coil-out-Dansi-00.jpg (64.55 KiB) Viewed 12984 times
Coil-out-Dansi.jpg
Coil-out-Dansi.jpg (63.48 KiB) Viewed 12984 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

arthur lewthwaite
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bol D'Or - New Project

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:13 pm

hugo if you just take the wire going from coil to points and condenser and fit it to other coil and do same test by flicking points you should get a spark,if you dont it has to be something other than coil.

Post Reply