A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Moto Rumi technical problems or solutions
Lars
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A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:26 pm

When I compared the engine in my Junior to a spare engine (also a Junior engine according to the numbering system), I noticed a strange discrepancy between the two.

Below the rear engine mounting ear, there is a second, unused set of mounting ears in the engine casting. Obviously, they are used in the SS/Bicarburatore to carry the shaft which transfers the foot-brake lever movement from the left side to the right side of the bike. In the Junior, this transfer is done by a simple cable, so the mounting ears are unused there. Fair enough.

But look at my spare engine on the floor. The second ears are missing. At first, I thought they had been ground off by a racer trying to save weight. But looking at the photos in Ricardo Crippa's Rumi book, the unused ears are visible in the 1956 and 1959 Juniors, but appear to be gone in the 1962 Junior Gentleman. Perhaps the factory removed the unused ears for the later Junior Gentleman.

Has anybody else seen these engines without the lower ears? Does it mean that my spare engine in the photo is a late production Junior/Junior Gentleman engine? I assume it would fit only a Junior or a Junior Gentleman.

I also assume that the motor now in the bike could be used in either a Junior or a SS/Bicarburatore, if you transfer cylinders, shift pedal, etc. Is that correct, do you think?
Attachments
Junior engine and spare.JPG
Junior engine and spare.JPG (225.02 KiB) Viewed 18159 times

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:49 pm

Hi Lars, the number of the engine on the floor, has the R125 prefix??

Regards;

Claudio.

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:13 pm

Hi Claudio,

No, the engine in the bike has R125 prefix, indicating that it was intended for the Argentine market.

The engine on the floor has the Junior type number, 2xx plus five digits. To me, that indicates it is a Junior/Junior Gentleman engine for the Italian/European market.

Do you agree?

The serial number is high, over 12000. There is also a title associated with this engine, which helps identify the approximate vintage. (Some states in the US had motorcycle titles based on the engine number). The title says 1960.

My theory is that around this time, 1959/1960, the factory started to produce the engines without the lower set of mounting ears, strictly for the Junior/Junior Gentleman. But it is only a theory. That is why I am asking if anyone else has seen such engines.


I bought the bike in the US. It had previously been in Canada, but I do not know any more of its history. I believe some previous owner installed this Argentine engine during restoration (again, only a guess). It was a very common practice, since any other engines were almost non-existent in the US.

My plan is to rebuild the dedicated Junior engine and install it in the bike, where it really belongs. The engine with Argentine number would then be a spare.
It is a project I have intended to do for some time. Hopefully, I will get on it soon!

Lars

RUMISTI
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RUMISTI » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:04 pm

Hello Lars,
yes you are with the year of manufacture of the vehicle, the vehicle identification number should * be * 155.SS.250 to 280.
In scan an invoice from 1960, from a Junior engine, which is in a property.
I am not aware that the RUMI factory, has engines without the bracket for foot brake supplied. See RUMI-book page 92 + 93 model from 1959 to 1962
regards
Rudolf
Original-Moto-Rumi-invoice.jpg
Original-Moto-Rumi-invoice.jpg (97.92 KiB) Viewed 18069 times

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:29 pm

Hi Lars, another question... Are both engines matching numbers?? I mean the numbers of twinned crankcases. Maybe someone mixed halves, like Hugo's engine.

I have another theory....


Regards..


Claudio

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:37 pm

The early junior machines were fitted with a centre stand. In 1964 1 owned two late gentleman. One believe is the gold one owned by a member of the rumi club, that i obtained from the person my friend sold it to. The other one i bought from Fred Wells motor cycles in wards worth hill, i do not know where this one went, but neither bikes had centre stands fitted hence missing lugs. I have a set of these cases here in England. Engine no large worn stamp looks like for p then 125 1041 on the rear under lugs shows matching set number on both halves 734. This shows set halves war machined as a pair and for identification as a pair when split for build or repair. If these numbers do not match then you most probably have different halves. So i assume the reason no lugs because no stand shalf required as no centre stand. I used to lean them against the back wall.

Lars
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Location: Sweden

Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:36 am

RUMISTI wrote:Hello Lars,
yes you are with the year of manufacture of the vehicle, the vehicle identification number should * be * 155.SS.250 to 280.
In scan an invoice from 1960, from a Junior engine, which is in a property.
I am not aware that the RUMI factory, has engines without the bracket for foot brake supplied. See RUMI-book page 92 + 93 model from 1959 to 1962
regards
Rudolf
Hello Rudolf,

Thank you for posting that document. From the engine number on the invoice I can see that the number of my engine appears authentic and correct for the period. Very helpful!

Regarding the foot brake mounting brackets: It is true that the photos on page 92 + 93 show the mounting ears, but I was looking at the 1962 Junior Gentleman in the Portfolio section. There the ears are missing (see scanned photo below).
Of course, that bike - and my engine - may have both been modified, but it seems unlikely that they would have been cut the same way by two different owner. The cut on my engine seems to have been professionally done.

As I said, just a theory, but I believe it could have been done at the factory.

Regards,
Lars
Attachments
Junior Gentleman 1962, reduced.jpg
Junior Gentleman 1962, reduced.jpg (100.48 KiB) Viewed 18084 times

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:47 am

RF125 wrote:Hi Lars, another question... Are both engines matching numbers?? I mean the numbers of twinned crankcases. Maybe someone mixed halves, like Hugo's engine.

I have another theory....


Regards..


Claudio
Hi Claudio,

I have just looked at those numbers. When an engine is mounted in a Junior frame, you can actually read both numbers from below.

Yes, both engines have matching numbers on the two crankcase halves.

Regards,
Lars

RUMISTI
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RUMISTI » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:14 am

Hello Lars,
compare the Gentlman in Colour, with the b / w photo on seie 92 + 93, and there are some differences noted (wheels)
Rudolf

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:17 am

arthur lewthwaite wrote:The early junior machines were fitted with a centre stand. In 1964 1 owned two late gentleman. One believe is the gold one owned by a member of the rumi club, that i obtained from the person my friend sold it to. The other one i bought from Fred Wells motor cycles in wards worth hill, i do not know where this one went, but neither bikes had centre stands fitted hence missing lugs. I have a set of these cases here in England. Engine no large worn stamp looks like for p then 125 1041 on the rear under lugs shows matching set number on both halves 734. This shows set halves war machined as a pair and for identification as a pair when split for build or repair. If these numbers do not match then you most probably have different halves. So i assume the reason no lugs because no stand shalf required as no centre stand. I used to lean them against the back wall.
Hello Arthur,

So there are other engines out there without the lower mounting ears!
It would make sense for the later Juniors and Junior Gentleman bikes. Those bikes look better without the unused brackets. I am not so sure it had anything to do with the center stand, though. My Junior has a center stand, but it is mounted to a welded extension on the frame. Just like the Juniors in the Portfolio section of the Rumi book.

I believe those mounting ears were there only to support the foot brake shafts on Sports, Super Sports and similar bikes.

So, anyone is looking for a replacement engine for a Sport or SS/Bicarburatore, should be aware that those late engines without mounting ears are out there (probably very rare, though), and that they will not work in a Sport or SS/Bicarburatore.

I thought that fact would be relevant to point out now that Hugo is looking for a replacement set of engine halves.

Lars

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:24 am

RUMISTI wrote:Hello Lars,
compare the Gentlman in Colour, with the b / w photo on seie 92 + 93, and there are some differences noted (wheels)
Rudolf
Hello Rudolf,

Yes, it is always possible that an owner may have made those modification. But, as I said, I doubt it.

But regardless of who did this modification, the fact remains that there are several engines in existence without the lower mounting ears, and that is something to look out for when searching for an engine.

Lars

Ian Skinner
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Ian Skinner » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:31 pm

Hi Lars, sorry for the confusion I caused you the other day, it's an age thing you know!!

Well, I have been investigating old photos of one 1957 Junior and two 1959 and 1961 Junior Gentlemen that I owned in my past. I can report that they all had centre stands attached to and pivoted on the frame from two vertical extensions. All engines were of the 2XX type and all had the 'ears' on the rear of the crankcases. As pointed out elsewhere , the colour Photo in Riccardo's book is the only chopped off version I have seen as well. I am not sure what Rudolf means about the wheels comparison, if he is referring to the wheel rims which in the colour photo are alloy and the others which I believe are steel. All my Juniors had steel rims, but in the UK some owners changed theirs to the alloy variety after purchase, as is the case with the John Dixon Racer.

While I was at it, with the extra info from Rudolf, I checked out my own Super Sport BC, finding to my surprise that it is a 1953 model (correct in all regards) and not 1954 as the original French purchasing documentation led one to believe. It turns out that it was actually imported into France from Italy early in 1954. So, we have all learned something in this exercise.

Ian

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:18 pm

Hello Lars, i have two engines like yours, and i had seeing some more in my country, all they without the lowers ears. See the pictures:
IMG-20130917-00353.jpg
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img (1).jpg
img (1).jpg (67.23 KiB) Viewed 18059 times
Regards

Claudio

tony mooring
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by tony mooring » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:42 pm

Hello Ian, The reason for changing the wheel rims from steel to alloy was because of the diameter. It was nigh impossible to find 19inch racing tyres but 18 were quite common. Most Rumi "Juniors" in the U.K. were converted and raced. One of the problems racers had in the 1950/60's was you could not buy a racing bike on 'higher purchase'. So what they done was to buy a "sports" bike and strip it to the bare essentials to race it. Consequently when enthusiasts came on the scene and tried to restore "juniors", it was very difficult to find original road going parts.ie lights, stands, mudguards (fenders) etc. Stand brackets were even cut off for lightness.

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:18 pm

the stands on bicarb and early gentle machines were fitted on a shaft going through these ears as ian said on the late er junior gentle man the stands came fitted to frame hence no need for lugs and stand shaft,both my gentleman had no stands fitted at all when i obtained them,the stands were tucked up behind the exhaust and difficult to get at so i think for various reasons they were removed especially by people who raced them,ask said i used to lean mine against the wall carefully,

tony mooring
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by tony mooring » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:34 pm

Sorry Arthur you are wrong. I have an early supersport and the centre stand system is the same as Hugo's bicarburettor. It is pivoted on an assembly which is bolted to the frame and clamped round the silencers. I too have had a couple of 'juniors' and they had stand brackets welded to the original frame as original from factory.

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:52 pm

tony you are right about hugos style of stand,only having seen a couple of early bikes it seems the system changed i had seen the ones where the stand brackets went around foot peg shaft after clamping to exhaust obviously i thought hugos etc were the same obviously they changed it,but the gentleman with the rear facing footrest lugs had stands on the frames that folded back up under theexhausts,a bit of a pain i believe,as i did not have them on my juniors i do not know what they were like to use as they had been removed for what ever reason,my reasoning being rumi removed ears on lower casting as they had no need for them as,,stands and foot pegs etc were fitted to frame,this tidying up design and look of bike.

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:17 am

Ian Skinner wrote:Hi Lars, sorry for the confusion I caused you the other day, it's an age thing you know!!

Well, I have been investigating old photos of one 1957 Junior and two 1959 and 1961 Junior Gentlemen that I owned in my past. I can report that they all had centre stands attached to and pivoted on the frame from two vertical extensions. All engines were of the 2XX type and all had the 'ears' on the rear of the crankcases. As pointed out elsewhere , the colour Photo in Riccardo's book is the only chopped off version I have seen as well. I am not sure what Rudolf means about the wheels comparison, if he is referring to the wheel rims which in the colour photo are alloy and the others which I believe are steel. All my Juniors had steel rims, but in the UK some owners changed theirs to the alloy variety after purchase, as is the case with the John Dixon Racer.

While I was at it, with the extra info from Rudolf, I checked out my own Super Sport BC, finding to my surprise that it is a 1953 model (correct in all regards) and not 1954 as the original French purchasing documentation led one to believe. It turns out that it was actually imported into France from Italy early in 1954. So, we have all learned something in this exercise.

Ian
Hi Ian, don't worry, you are not the only one affected by the "old age thing" now and then!

The situation with my Bicarburatore turns out to be the same as with your bike: It still has the old crankcase, and was probably manufactured in 1953 according to the info from Rudolf, but registered as a 1954 model. I have the original first registration for the bike. It was registered in Stockholm, Sweden on April 9 April, 1954.

I take note of the fact that all your bikes had the lower rear mounting tabs.

The issue of steel vs. alloy rims is another can of worms. It would deserve its own thread!

Lars

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:35 am

RF125 wrote:Hello Lars, i have two engines like yours, and i had seeing some more in my country, all they without the lowers ears. See the pictures:

Regards

Claudio

Hello Claudio, thank you for posting those photos! They look exactly like my engine.
I was just about to throw in the towel and admit that I probably had been reading too much into my observations on just two engines. But with your two engines, and another one in Arthur's possession, there seems to be something more to it.
It seems entirely possible that the factory removed the unused tabs on the late production engines, for the reasons already mentioned: They were no longer needed, cleaner looks and (for racers) lower weight.

Lars

RUMISTI
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RUMISTI » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:37 am

when the RUMI factory has done something, then with machine processing, and not with a saw and a file.
I have not seen on original brochures, and reviews in old magazines without ears.
I have a motor from 1953 without ears, back then there was no Junior models.

regards Rudolf

Ian Skinner
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Ian Skinner » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:35 am

Hi Arthur

Check out http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... f=16&t=143

It shows photos of my old 1960 gent racer and it's return to normality, note the centre stand on the road going vesion.

Ian

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:25 am

RUMISTI wrote:when the RUMI factory has done something, then with machine processing, and not with a saw and a file.
I have not seen on original brochures, and reviews in old magazines without ears.
I have a motor from 1953 without ears, back then there was no Junior models.

regards Rudolf
Rudolf, yes, it does seem out of character with factory. If it had been a permanent change, they would have modified the casting mould.

I only said it was a possibility. It may instead have been a "standard practice" for all who raced Rumis at the time to do such a modification, explaining why so many were modified in excactly the same way. Perhaps.

For my own purposes, with this engine, it makes no difference to me. I have a rule for all my vintage vehicles and that is to keep them as close to original as possible, but with one important exception: I allow myself "period correct" modifications, if they improve the vehicle's performance and/or looks.
If so many racers made this modification at the time, it definitely qualifies as a period correct modification, in my mind. And yes, it does improve the looks and performance of the bike.

So I will have no second thoughts about preparing this engine and installing it in the Junior, no matter who actually made this modification originally.

Lars

arthur lewthwaite
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Arthur reply to Ian

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:50 am

Ian Skinner wrote:Hi Arthur

Check out http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... f=16&t=143

It shows photos of my old 1960 gent racer and it's return to normality, note the centre stand on the road going vesion.

Ian
Ian yes, this is the same as the late models i had one gold one red but what i have been saying is mine had no stands although frame lugs were there,but had been taken of for what ever reason hence me leaning them against wall

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:05 pm

Lars, i don't know where these ears was cutted, if in Italy or Argentine, but i know, in my country, Argentina, these engines was fitted in the frames like in the pictures. This model was the Argentine Rumi Sport. This frame was manufactured entirely here, like the mudguards, and seat among other things too..
IMG00109-20101027-1644.jpg
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IMG00103-20101027-1627.jpg (90.06 KiB) Viewed 17981 times
1060310_223130701168093_1378908170_n.jpg
1060310_223130701168093_1378908170_n.jpg (182.09 KiB) Viewed 17981 times

Greets;


Claudio

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:12 pm

Aah, this is really interesting, Claudio.
Like a detective story, this is finally starting to make sense.

The Argentine Rumi Sport has the foot brake pedal support attached to the frame! Those unused lower mounting ears of the engine would interfere with that part of the frame. They would HAVE TO be cut, otherwise the engine would not fit in this frame.

At least, that is the way it looks form your photos. Do you agree?

If so, it would explain why so many engines with Argentine numbers have this modification!

Lars

hugomez
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by hugomez » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:19 pm

Here there is a topic about this frame where is possible to see more photos, however it is not possible to see very clear the engine, pity.

LINK: http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... =16&t=1012
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

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