A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Moto Rumi technical problems or solutions
RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:53 pm

Lars wrote:Aah, this is really interesting, Claudio.
Like a detective story, this is finally starting to make sense.

The Argentine Rumi Sport has the foot brake pedal support attached to the frame! Those unused lower mounting ears of the engine would interfere with that part of the frame. They would HAVE TO be cut, otherwise the engine would not fit in this frame.

At least, that is the way it looks form your photos. Do you agree?

If so, it would explain why so many engines with Argentine numbers have this modification!

Lars
For this reason, my first question was, what numbers have your engine stamped!!!

;)

Claudio

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:46 pm

hugomez wrote:Here there is a topic about this frame where is possible to see more photos, however it is not possible to see very clear the engine, pity.

LINK: http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... =16&t=1012

Thanks, Hugo, I vaguely remember the subject now. Looks like a pretty good frame, by the way. A sturdier frame than a Junior but with a Sport/SS front end. Having the foot brake shaft supported by the frame also makes a lot of sense.

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:54 pm

RF125 wrote:
Lars wrote:Aah, this is really interesting, Claudio.
Like a detective story, this is finally starting to make sense.

The Argentine Rumi Sport has the foot brake pedal support attached to the frame! Those unused lower mounting ears of the engine would interfere with that part of the frame. They would HAVE TO be cut, otherwise the engine would not fit in this frame.

At least, that is the way it looks form your photos. Do you agree?

If so, it would explain why so many engines with Argentine numbers have this modification!

Lars
For this reason, my first question was, what numbers have your engine stamped!!!

;)

Claudio
OK, so you knew the reason all along! For me, it was news.

So, that completely explains all the Argentine engines with the tabs cut off.

It does not explain why the engines with 2xx numbers were modified in the same way.
Unless, of course, those engines have made a trip to Argentina and back.

Lars

tony mooring
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by tony mooring » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:18 pm

I think you will find that all of the 'plunger' type suspension bikes all had the bottom lugs (ears as you call them) for the rear brake pivot shaft. When the later 'junior gent' type machines were introduced with swinging arm suspension the rear brake was operated via a crossover cable. Hugo, for your information you will need a crankcase with these lugs otherwise you will have no rear brake.

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:21 pm

For me it was news to find a 2xx engine without ears, perhaps these ears were cutted in Bergamo and Argentina received these engines, and then designed a frame to use them .... what do you think?

Claudio

tony mooring
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by tony mooring » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:26 pm

I do not think these lugs were 'cut off' by anybody. The crankcase were cast with out the lugs. Also bear in mind the 'junior gentleman' was only in production for about three years (from 1959-62). In 1962 Rumi went into liquidation and I have a letter to prove that fact.

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:39 pm

tony mooring wrote:I do not think these lugs were 'cut off' by anybody. The crankcase were cast with out the lugs. Also bear in mind the 'junior gentleman' was only in production for about three years (from 1959-62). In 1962 Rumi went into liquidation and I have a letter to prove that fact.

mmmm.....i think that this lugs/ears, was cutted off, no inyected. Clearly note the brand of the saw machine as it shows in the junior left side cover, that is the Sport left side cover was cutted. It's my point of view...


Regards;

Claudio..

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:55 pm

I speak about this Junior left side cover...
100_1137[1] copia.jpg
100_1137[1] copia.jpg (221.61 KiB) Viewed 11783 times
if you look carefully, you will see that this is a cutted type Sport left side cover.

Greets

Claudio

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:08 pm

tony mooring wrote:I think you will find that all of the 'plunger' type suspension bikes all had the bottom lugs (ears as you call them) for the rear brake pivot shaft. When the later 'junior gent' type machines were introduced with swinging arm suspension the rear brake was operated via a crossover cable. Hugo, for your information you will need a crankcase with these lugs otherwise you will have no rear brake.
Tony, this exactly what I believed, and what I was trying to say (probably very poorly) in my first post in this thread. It seemed logical to me.
Rudolf totally disagrees, though, citing the lack of photos from the factory showing cases without lugs. He believes owners must have cut the lugs off.

And I am only trying to learn what is correct. Did they ever come from the factory that way, or not?

That's where we are, still arguing about it...


I just read Claudio's latest posts, and took a closer look at my engine without lugs. Must confess that I now see traces of a saw-cut. Does not seem like something the factory would do. But why was it done to a Junior Gent engine (2xx no.), which, as far as I know, spent its whole life in the US?

Not trying to win an argument either way. Just trying to learn something.

Lars

hugomez
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by hugomez » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:21 pm

Lars, perhaps in the past, the previous owner of your engine (2xx no.) saw Argentinian engines without the "ears" and liked the idea to get rid of this not useful part that actually do not look very nice if the bike do not need it. So maybe he copied it, cutting them.

I think we all in some point looking a Junior, took our attention those "ears". So, I would not find strange that somebody after seen that other engines do not have them, decide to take them off.
Attachments
Moto-rumi_125_junior-.jpg
Moto-rumi_125_junior-.jpg (92.58 KiB) Viewed 11779 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:50 pm

Lars wrote:

I just read Claudio's latest posts, and took a closer look at my engine without lugs. Must confess that I now see traces of a saw-cut. Does not seem like something the factory would do.

Lars

Why do you say it's not something that could be done at the factory?

It's easier to cut a piece to redo a mold .... Like the case of the Junior side cover I mentioned before....

Greets

Claudio

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:57 pm

Perhaps, this engines, was used to fitted in the Rumi Diana, which don't uses the lower lugs/ears. Or yes?? I don't know very much about this model.... but judging by the photo, does not use, what do you think Lars?

Rumi Diana 3.jpg
Rumi Diana 3.jpg (105.92 KiB) Viewed 11776 times
Claudio

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:59 am

hugomez wrote:Lars, perhaps in the past, the previous owner of your engine (2xx no.) saw Argentinian engines without the "ears" and liked the idea to get rid of this not useful part that actually do not look very nice if the bike do not need it. So maybe he copied it, cutting them.

I think we all in some point looking a Junior, took our attention those "ears". So, I would not find strange that somebody after seen that other engines do not have them, decide to take them off.


Hugo, very possible - and, yes, not strange at all. The Junior is otherwise such a graceful design, and those lugs are visually very disturbing. Removing them was a good choice, no matter who did it. Even if the factory did not do it, they should have, in my opinion.

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:03 am

RF125 wrote:
Lars wrote:

I just read Claudio's latest posts, and took a closer look at my engine without lugs. Must confess that I now see traces of a saw-cut. Does not seem like something the factory would do.

Lars

Why do you say it's not something that could be done at the factory?

It's easier to cut a piece to redo a mold .... Like the case of the Junior side cover I mentioned before....

Greets

Claudio

Claudio, I see what you mean now. The factory obviously did not create a new casting for the Junior side cover. They just modified the existing Sport/SS covers for the Junior with a simple saw cut. I assume you are saying that if the factory did this to the side cover, why would they not do a similar modification to the ears/lugs?

You have a point there.

Lars
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Lars » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:09 am

RF125 wrote:Perhaps, this engines, was used to fitted in the Rumi Diana, which don't uses the lower lugs/ears. Or yes?? I don't know very much about this model.... but judging by the photo, does not use, what do you think Lars?

Rumi Diana 3.jpg
Claudio
I do not know much about the Diana either, but it shows that the Rumi designs during the last few years were moving away from the engine mounted foot brake shaft, and that the lugs were no longer needed.

In the case of this engine, though, it probably had no connection the the Diana. I know a bit of its history, and it was always a Junior or Junior Gent engine.

Lars

Ian Skinner
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Ian Skinner » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:18 am

Isn't it strange, when out of the blue, a set of entries related to completely unrelated issue, suddenly provide the solution to an outstanding Rumi identity problem here in the UK. About 10 years ago the machine shown in the attachment, hit our shores, we were completely baffled. Well, thank you Claudio, you have unknowingly provided the solution!!!!! Thank you.

Ian
Attachments
Argentine Mystery.jpg
Argentine Mystery.jpg (204.63 KiB) Viewed 11751 times

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:22 pm

Lars wrote:
Claudio, I see what you mean now. The factory obviously did not create a new casting for the Junior side cover. They just modified the existing Sport/SS covers for the Junior with a simple saw cut. I assume you are saying that if the factory did this to the side cover, why would they not do a similar modification to the ears/lugs?

You have a point there.

Exactly Lars, i mean it! This was my theory...

Greets!

Claudio

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:29 pm

Ian Skinner wrote:Isn't it strange, when out of the blue, a set of entries related to completely unrelated issue, suddenly provide the solution to an outstanding Rumi identity problem here in the UK. About 10 years ago the machine shown in the attachment, hit our shores, we were completely baffled. Well, thank you Claudio, you have unknowingly provided the solution!!!!! Thank you.

Ian
I'm glad I helped to you, Ian... I believe that in the Rumi history, we must have present at all Argentine models, since they are legitimate and are scattered around the world like the italian models ...

Best regards;

Claudio

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:43 pm

Do not forget Ivan's Junior, like mine, are only models that were sold here, but by no means cease to be legitimate Rumi motorcycles..

1959 Telescopic Rumi Junior, Argentine version
RUMI1.jpg
RUMI1.jpg (99.78 KiB) Viewed 11743 times
Racing-Moto-Rumi-Junior---Race.jpg
Racing-Moto-Rumi-Junior---Race.jpg (74.2 KiB) Viewed 11714 times

Regards

Claudio

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:15 pm

Nothing more to say about the lugs ?? Nobody can bring something about the use of this engine in the Diana model?

I think still we have much more to learn ..

Best regards;

Claudio

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:00 pm

i think i have a diana frame here that came from argentina.

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:44 pm

Could be a Rumi 200 Argentine model frame, like this:
Rumi 200.jpg
Rumi 200.jpg (56.37 KiB) Viewed 11701 times

Greets..

Claudio

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:40 pm

No, it is the same frame as ians picture above. If you look under the rear of the tank just between the seat and tank you will see the end of a single tube joining in the centre of the two tubes that form out round the seat. The single tube goes under tank and up to headstock.

RF125
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by RF125 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:05 pm

But the ian's picture isn't a diana, it's a argentine rumi sport.

Greets..

Claudio

hugomez
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by hugomez » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:28 pm

Hi,

I just saw this Argentinian Rumi for sale online and keeping in mind this topic, I pay attention about the "ears", look:
No-ears-engine-rumi.jpg
No-ears-engine-rumi.jpg (202.46 KiB) Viewed 16275 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Ian Skinner
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Re: A dedicated Junior/Junior Gentleman engine?

Post by Ian Skinner » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:41 am

See what you mean. Must be a bit of a b----- having to lug that stand around though!

Ian

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