Replacing CEV switch

Moto Rumi technical problems or solutions
hugomez
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Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Sat May 16, 2020 7:13 pm

Hi,

I hope somebody can help me clarifying this doubt I have regarding those CEV switches.

Since my Formichino was restored in 2006, it has the wrong CEV switch on it and now I want to change it for the correct one. I didn't restore that scooter by then (but I applied many changes on it since it was restored :D ), so, I am not sure how the wiring was made.
Before I start dismantling things to understand the complete wiring situation, I would like to see if I can avoid dismantling anything just doing a simple replacing of those CEV switches, but I am not sure how the wiring should be connected in the new one.

I have check the wiring at the switches of my other Rumis to see what I did with them and follow it, however I even have one less wire in the switch on the Formichino, so what I did in those bikes also don't clarify my doubts.

Maybe some of you fully understand how these two switches work and can let me know where each wire goes?

The CEV switch at the right side of the photo is the one that is right now at the Formichino (5 wire), and the left side CEV switch is the one I want to mount.

Any idea???

Replacing-CEV-switch-Moto-Rumi.jpg
Replacing-CEV-switch-Moto-Rumi.jpg (117.08 KiB) Viewed 2791 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

UHJ200
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by UHJ200 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm

You are going to have to take the chrome cover off to see what goes where on the other side of the black (insulated) part and post pictures.

That means removing the split pin that holds the three (?) way switch. Watch out for things that go "ping" :o :!:

Think yourself lucky, yours is in one piece, my switch lever was broken and I had to remake the darned thing.

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Sun May 17, 2020 9:01 pm

UHJ200 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm
You are going to have to take the chrome cover off to see what goes where on the other side of the black (insulated) part and post pictures.
That means removing the split pin that holds the three (?) way switch. Watch out for things that go "ping" :o :!:
Think yourself lucky, yours is in one piece, my switch lever was broken and I had to remake the darned thing.
Hi David,

I think I will use the "try and error" technique. I am almost sure 1, 2, 4 and 5 will be ok in the position I mentioned, the real doubt is on number 3. I will just take the scooter to the street one of these days and start the engine with the number 3 in one of the 3 options, if I don't get lights, I will move to the next and so on.

Hopefully I will be lucky and all will work fine with the new CEV switch.

Greets,
Hugo
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

UHJ200
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by UHJ200 » Sun May 17, 2020 10:31 pm

Cluck :!: Cluck :!:

Don't be a wimp, pull that pin :!: :twisted: :lol:

We all want to see what is on the other side . . .

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sun May 17, 2020 10:43 pm

Friend of mine was no wimp, he pulled the pin on a hand grenade and found out what was on the other side, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Sun May 17, 2020 11:45 pm

arthur lewthwaite wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:43 pm
Friend of mine was no wimp, he pulled the pin on a hand grenade and found out what was on the other side, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

UHJ200
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:34 am

(1) You are only 'sposed to pull the pin once :!: :shock:

(2) I know it is an "Italian Job" but it 'aint got no doors to blow off . . . :lol: :roll:

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Mon May 18, 2020 1:44 am

UHJ200 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:34 am
(1) You are only 'sposed to pull the pin once :!: :shock:
(2) I know it is an "Italian Job" but it 'aint got no doors to blow off . . . :lol: :roll:
:lol: :lol:

David, there was no way I was going to open the brand new CEV switch, HOWEVER I have one exact model in pretty rough condition that is ok to dismantle, so here the photos of it.

CEV-switch-OLD-01.jpg
CEV-switch-OLD-01.jpg (67.35 KiB) Viewed 2750 times

As you can see I only name it from 1 to 5, instead from 1 to 7, because I only have 5 wires in the current (not correct) CEV switch of my Formichino.

CEV-switch-OLD-opened-02.jpg
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This last photos below are the same once I posted yesterday to know where I have to connect the wires 3 (brown), 4 (red) and 5 (yellow/green) in the new CEV switch.
Replacing-CEV-switch-Moto-Rumi.jpg
Replacing-CEV-switch-Moto-Rumi.jpg (117.08 KiB) Viewed 2750 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

RF125
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by RF125 » Mon May 18, 2020 2:55 pm

Hugo, will can`t conect the new light switch, only with 5 wires, you must re-do the electrical installation.... You must have 7 wires:

1 & 2= Main and dipped Beam
3a= Tail + speedo Lights
3b= +ve
3c= Pilot bulb
5= +ve via resistor
4= horn

I recomend to you, to use one multimeter, for understand how the switch works...

Regards;

Claudio

UHJ200
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 18, 2020 4:11 pm

I have found a drawing that might help, all I have to do is charge the camera and then work out how to post it on here.

Yeh! I know, dinosaur, any tenuous link to computing competence stopped with Win XP, this ghastly laptop and Win 10 are beyond me . . . :roll:

Wot the f*** is an effin "app" anyway? ---- Other 3/5ths of an apple? :x

Watch this space . . .

Lars
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by Lars » Mon May 18, 2020 8:43 pm

Hugo, I agre with Claudio: Take the ohmmeter and check which terminals are connected together in the different positions. Then use common sense to label the terminals. That way, you will understand what you are doing. You are already well on your way.
Moving wires around by trial and error on an idling bike on the street is no way to do it.

For example, start with the obvious ones: The signal horn is a given. The high and low beam headlight is a given, it is number 1 and 2 in your photo. The common (wiper) for those two (High and low beam) appears to be number 4 - but verify with meter. Call that the Headlight terminal.

Then try to understand the function of the switch in pos. 1, 0 and 2. One way to do that is to refer to the UHJ200 color schematic. I think it is very clear. I am posting it here again for convenience. Note: The 6V feed is labeled +ve in this diagram.

In all positions, 1, 0 and 2, you will have three terminals connected together. Check which three to verify your connections:

Pos. 1 (figure on the left): 6V via resistor connected to tail/speedo light and to pilot bulb .
Pos. 0 (figure in center): 6V to nothing, 6V via resistor to nothing. All lights off. (Ignore other terminals connected together, they have no power)
Pos. 2 (figure on right): 6V connected to headlights and to tail/speedo light.

Sounds complicated to describe, but easy when you verfy with meter. Good luck!

Rumi Formichino Wiring-Diagram_By_UHJ200.jpg
Rumi Formichino Wiring-Diagram_By_UHJ200.jpg (96.11 KiB) Viewed 2713 times

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Mon May 18, 2020 11:04 pm

Thank you Claudio, David and Lars for your replies and help.

If Claudio is right and is not possible to make this switch work with 5 wires, I am not sure if I will do this work soon. The last thing I want to do is start dismantling this Formichino. It has been with 5 wires since was restored 14 years ago, and the lights work. It is true that the pilot light do not work, but if I am correct (the high, low, horn and tail lights worked fine).

I would be happy at the moment if with the new CEV switch I manage to get the same.

The electrics has always been the most complicated area for me. In my other projects I always manage eventually, but sometimes with a bit of luck and certainly not always known exactly what I was doing. I know is not ideal, but so far I managed.

Lars, I will read several times your last message and check carefully the color schematic that David (UHJ200) made for us some time ago, thanks for posting it here again :)

Just last think, I know the ohmmeter is an amazing helpful tool for those who knows well what they are doing and how to properly use it, but my previous experiences with it has been not very successful, so I ended making all my wirings without it. Silly, I know.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by Lars » Tue May 19, 2020 6:32 am

Hugo, I think Claudio was saying that you need the seven wires If you want all the original functions, including the pilot lights.

Certainly you could mount the CEV switch and use only five wires to get the same functions you have now. To do that, just concentrate on the pos. 2 on the right in David's diagram. You already know the high and low beam, so you just need to connect the 6v and the tail/speedo light and you are done! Four wires plus one for the horn. Done. You can do it!

It makes alot of sense to have only high/low beam + tail/speedo light, the way you have it now. That is how I have it in all my bikes.

About that pilot light and the inductor/resistor: They are not needed!

Unless you insist on riding around with parking lights only, that is. And that is not only illegal in most countries, but also suicidal. You always want to have the headlights on to be seen in today's traffic, I would think.

That pilot light is what we today call a parking light. Why anyone would want parking lights on a scooter with no battery is beyond me, but that was what the factory did. The only reason to keep that function would be for historical accuracy. It is of no use today.

Without the parking light function, you don't need the inductor/resistor either! It is bypassed when the headlight is on. so you can take it out. It has no function then. I don't have it in any of my bikes. The tail light will not burn out as long as you have the headlight on at the same time.

Hope I have not confused you even more now!
Lars

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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Tue May 19, 2020 8:26 am

Hi Lars,

Thank you again, I will focus on Position 2 as you suggested and hopefully I will get it working. Your knowledge in the electrics area is always very welcome and helpful, I appreciate it :)
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

RF125
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by RF125 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:35 pm

Hugo, surely in your old switch, you haven`t installed the pilot bulb, then you don't have either the +ve via resistor cable (this cable it`s necessary only for the pilot bulb), without these two, you have 5. this way you can connect your new switch without those functions..


Regards

Claudio

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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Tue May 19, 2020 7:56 pm

Thank you Claudio, now I only have to figure it out how to connect those 5 cables. :)
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by RF125 » Tue May 19, 2020 10:54 pm

Only two, because there are three that you know, 25/25 headlamp you know, and horn you know too... +ve i know it`s 3a and tail lamp it`s 5.

Regards

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm

RF125 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:54 pm
Only two, because there are three that you know, 25/25 headlamp you know, and horn you know too... +ve i know it`s 3a and tail lamp it`s 5.
Regards
Thank you Claudio :D

So in the new CEV switch will be:

1 Low light
2 High light
3a +ve
4 Horn
5 Tail light

The question now is about the wires and the OLD CEV switch:

1 Low light
2 High light
3 Brown cable ???
4 Horn
5 Yellow and green ???

+ve and Tail light are in 3 and 5, but don't know which one is what.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by Lars » Wed May 20, 2020 7:42 am

hugomez wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm
RF125 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:54 pm
Only two, because there are three that you know, 25/25 headlamp you know, and horn you know too... +ve i know it`s 3a and tail lamp it`s 5.
Regards
Thank you Claudio :D

So in the new CEV switch will be:

1 Low light
2 High light
3a +ve
4 Horn
5 Tail light

The question now is about the wires and the OLD CEV switch:

1 Low light
2 High light
3 Brown cable ???
4 Horn
5 Yellow and green ???

+ve and Tail light are in 3 and 5, but don't know which one is what.
Should be easy to identify. Just look which wires they are spliced together with, in the space behind the headlight. +ve is the main feed for the lights from the engine. It should be red, but you never know, so check. It should be spliced together with one wire going to the horn also the resistor. That is the +ve.

The tail light wire is the one that is spliced only with the speedo light, and of course, the wire going to the tail light.

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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Wed May 20, 2020 7:46 am

Good morning,

Without dismantling anything and looking under the scooter, I saw that the kill button has a red wire and a green/yellow wire on it.
The wire that arrive to the rear light is black

Of course those wires do not end directly at the CEV switch, but first they pass by the coils and headlight. For me make sense that the color remain the same all the way even if it pass by any other component of the scooter, but who knows, maybe after the "bridge" connections, the person that make the wiring change wire colors. ??????
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by Lars » Wed May 20, 2020 8:08 am

Good morning Hugo,

The Kill button? Now you really have me confused. It should have nothing to do with the lights. The Kill switch only connects the two primaries (usually green and white) on the ignition coils together.

I agree that the color should remain the same even after it passes a component or junction point. And it usually does. But to the handlebar light switch, many restorers use a multiconductor cable, which is available only in some standard color combinations, so it is just not possible to keep the same color. That is why you need to look inside the housing to see which wires the handlebar wires are joined with.

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 am

Hi Lars,

I will remove the headlight cover and see the connections, otherwise we will be "guessing" all the time.

By the way, we have a very nice Switch diagrams (CEV and Aprilia brand models) at Downloads / Tutorials, Diagrams and Drawings / Rumi Switch Diagram by Ian Skinner

LINK: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=717

We have so much information in the forum that sometimes I forget what we have here. :D
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Wed May 20, 2020 8:50 am

Well, I removed the headlight fairing and this is the little mess I found.

As you can see there is also a black wire disconnected around. Aiaiaiaiaiaiiii!!!!


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My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Wed May 20, 2020 9:32 am

Ok, following the wires to the switch I can see this:

1 Black: -------------- Low light
2 Blue: --------------- High light
3 Brown: ------------- Horn
4 Red: ---------------- +ev
5 Green/Yellow: ------- Tail light

Does it make any sense?

OLD-CEV-Switch.jpg
OLD-CEV-Switch.jpg (61.51 KiB) Viewed 2621 times
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Lars
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by Lars » Wed May 20, 2020 11:28 am

Yes, from what I can see, it does make sense. But what a mess...

The loose black wire seems to be the ground connection for the lamp/reflector assembly. Since the reflector is on a swivel mount, it does not get good ground connection through the metal, so it needs a separate wire ground. Assuming the other end of that black wire is indeed connected to the chassis, just reconnect it to the empty terminal on the pilot light.

hugomez
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Re: Replacing CEV switch

Post by hugomez » Wed May 20, 2020 11:43 am

Hi Lars,

Good to know that this make sense to you.

I just reconnect the black wire and I will take the bike out to check if all lights work (STILL using the OLD switch). I will write down what happen in every position of the switch.

More soon.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

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